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It is a rant. I do get angry about some things. I intend to always get angry about some things. This is one set of things.
I was going to reply to a manhattan post, but thought I would widen the topic. It starts with this from the Chicago Tribune:
SPRINGFIELD--A year after fending off the state's attempts to take her child, a Downstate woman who tested the bounds of breast-feeding appeared on national television Tuesday in controversial footage showing her 8-year-old son suckling at her breast.
It caused a commotion. Moralists of every stripe leaped out of the woodwork to condemn this for various reasons. I say bullshit.
We are animals. The third chimp, to be specific. More closely related to the Bonobos than to the chimpanzees.
Every behavioral taboo we have was created by our cognitive selves. The taboos have no reality in our biology. Enough already.
Squicked by public displays of affection? Think public sex is wrong? Think that a 5 year old shouldn't be allowed to see adults being sexual? Think public nudity is wrong? Think nudity means sex? Think sexual behavior between 15-year-old is wrong? How about 7 year olds playing doctor?
We made up all the rules. The rules are STUPID. We enforce stupid rules and teach the wrong things to our kids. We teach them to be ashamed of their bodies. We teach them to be ashamed of their desires. We teach them that certain parts of their bodies are bad or that certain bodily functions are evil. We teach them to despise the animal parts of themselves at the same time that those parts pull them to explore their natures.
CRAP. It isn't a mother who occasionally is nursing an 8 year old that is the problem. It's the righteousness of some many people pretending that they are above the whole animal thing.
Taboos are rules made up to limit common animal behavior.
Down with social taboos.
I was going to reply to a manhattan post, but thought I would widen the topic. It starts with this from the Chicago Tribune:
SPRINGFIELD--A year after fending off the state's attempts to take her child, a Downstate woman who tested the bounds of breast-feeding appeared on national television Tuesday in controversial footage showing her 8-year-old son suckling at her breast.
It caused a commotion. Moralists of every stripe leaped out of the woodwork to condemn this for various reasons. I say bullshit.
We are animals. The third chimp, to be specific. More closely related to the Bonobos than to the chimpanzees.
Every behavioral taboo we have was created by our cognitive selves. The taboos have no reality in our biology. Enough already.
Squicked by public displays of affection? Think public sex is wrong? Think that a 5 year old shouldn't be allowed to see adults being sexual? Think public nudity is wrong? Think nudity means sex? Think sexual behavior between 15-year-old is wrong? How about 7 year olds playing doctor?
We made up all the rules. The rules are STUPID. We enforce stupid rules and teach the wrong things to our kids. We teach them to be ashamed of their bodies. We teach them to be ashamed of their desires. We teach them that certain parts of their bodies are bad or that certain bodily functions are evil. We teach them to despise the animal parts of themselves at the same time that those parts pull them to explore their natures.
CRAP. It isn't a mother who occasionally is nursing an 8 year old that is the problem. It's the righteousness of some many people pretending that they are above the whole animal thing.
Taboos are rules made up to limit common animal behavior.
Down with social taboos.
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there was a study done on primates, primarily the "big 3": humans, chimps, the great apes. the study examined the social structures & primate interactions (mostly old-hat research). humans were given as the "control" group and comparisons were made to the great apes (gorillas, etc.) and chimps...
gorillas have a very monogamous social structure: the dominant male has exclusive mating rights among the female of the species.
chimps have the opposite: as long as it holds still long enough, it gets nailed down.
humans... well...
there was a study of physiology correlated with this, based on testicle mass... it found that if all the studied species were put on a mass-equivalent scale and given proportionately massive testicles (which relates to sperm production, natch) that the picture would look like this...
.. <--gorilla balls
oo <--human jewels
OO <--chimp stones
the story related them as "raisins, grapes, and grapefruit"
what they concluded, based on social structure and reproductive habits, that humans are serial monogamists on average, and the ideals of "one mate" isn't part of our evolutionary hardwiring as humans.
this was on the front page of the science times.
never got farther than that one article.
totally unrelated, but interesting, nonetheless.
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If we look at Chimps and bonobos, we see strikingly different social behaviors around sexuality. But in both populations, the genetic redistribution of material is about the same.
There are species that pair-bond for extended periods of time or even life, but sexual exclusivity seems to be a complete myth.
Love,
Lynn
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As wrong as any of us may find social taboos, our children are contextualized within them and, at eight, identify within those taboos, be they sexual or otherwise. To cross those taboos, especially so strongly, can be damaging to a child. It has nothing to do with whether I believe it's right to do or not and everything to do with how comfortable the child is. Her action of allowing herself and her child to be taped and broadcast says to me that she is not thinking of her child as an independant entity who has to make his way in the world and who may not feel comfortable being identified among his peers and the public at large as someone who is still breastfeeding.
I am perfectly happy to go topless, as is my legal right. On the other hand, I'm not about to make my child uncomfortable by doing so in the presence of her peers or their parents. Children are sensitive and non-critical about their taboos and they need to be taught to be critical and then respected until they decide whether or not to keep (as they might) or discard the taboo in question. There will come a time when I will do as I please whether my child likes it or not, but not until she feels separate enough from me that she doesn't feel personally humiliated by my choices. Children, while people, follow very different rules in relation to their parents, especially their mothers. It was what I perceived as disrespect towards the child that bothered me, not the breastfeeding in and of itself. That was just the act that conveyed what I perceived as being a damaging and disrespectful attitude.
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I have a real passion for good parents. :)
Love,
Lynn
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Yeah. And it's a rotten shame, too. This is, in fact, why many groups have chosen to isolate their entire communities from the larger world. But, even then, they create a new set or bring an old set of taboos with them.
There has to be some way to teach our children cultural expectations without having the child buy the rightness of the cultural restrictions. That is a very hard thing to unlearn later in life.
Love,
Lynn
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"Can I wear my bathingsuit into the tub?"
"Can I live under the table?"
"Can I put a ketchup happy face on the outside of a jam sandwich?"
"Can I cut my own hair?"
"Can I take toy X swimming?"
My answers to all of the above are "Why not?" along with a discussion of consequences like "Toy X will probably rust" and "You might not like the way ketchup tastes with jam." Yet, I know that many parents say "no" automatically. And the response to "But why?" is too often "Because I said so" or "Because that's how it is". Kids pick up these messages and keep them. "It makes no sense to me that Y is correct, yet it's enforced, therefore things that make no sense still must be obeyed." Add to this the fact that a lot of people get aggressive when their irrational paradigm is questioned, and kids are quickly indoctrinated into the Church of No Questions.
This is not to say that my answer isn't sometimes, "No, and I'm too damn tired to explain why so don't argue right now, I need you to do what I say." But most of the time, whether it's theology or sandwiches, I try to be open to alternative reasoning. I am far from being a perfect parent but I really do try. As my mother says, "You're good enough and that's all that matters." At least I always have the consolation that I've raised my child not to believe that I'm infallible so she will feel free to question and drop the wrong things I've taught her.
When you talk to children in an ongoing way, things fall into place beautifully. Most kids are naturally sensitive and loving with a powerful sense of justice. There is a logic behind most of our cultural expectations that makes sense to children where as the restrictions are usually such that they require the child to subvert their sense of logic in order to accept them.
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Murder, rape and abuse aren't taboos. According to dictionary.com : "A ban or an inhibition resulting from social custom or emotional aversion. A prohibition, especially in Polynesia and other South Pacific islands, excluding something from use, approach, or mention because of its sacred and inviolable nature. An object, a word, or an act protected by such a prohibition."
I think that we can agree that behavior that harms others is NOT just a taboo. Taboo is "don't touch this, don't talk about this, don't do this" behavior around something that in and of itself is harmless. Don't stand on the sacred rock. Don't look a married woman in the eye. Don't eat meat on Fridays.
Abusing, harming, exploiting a child is not a taboo issue. Unreasoned "ew" reaction to something harmless (the breastfeeding) is.
Of interest may be this post (http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=pan_dot_com&itemid=3833) from
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And yes, I misspoke myself about murder and rape being taboos if you want to get technical about it, but my point goes more towards the child exploitation that I'm getting from it - I wasn't seeing a connection between sexual taboos and exploiting a child.
peace,
Patti
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Add me if you like -- up to you, I wouldn't force my writings on anyone...
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Look, I'm a freewheeling person without many inhibitions as far as what other people do. I have a creed of live and let live - don't impose on my rights and I won't impose on yours type of thing - I really don't care if this woman is breastfeeding her child after 8 years - but that's just me. I breast fed my oldest till I had to go back to work - and I couldn't stop soon enough. It was a pain in the ass. I can't imagine someone wanting to do it for 8 frillin' years. I question it because I'm not sure why it appeared on national tv to begin with. Why waste my time? Why is this national news? I didn't go "eww" when I saw it. I was just like - "What the hell, where's the stock market report?"
Why limit ourselves to just sexual taboos.. how about social taboos, like wearing white after Labor Day... Vegans think that meat products are a taboo...
I think sometimes people do things for shock value. I think sometimes people do things because they don't know any better.
8 years old.. and still breastfeeding.. come on.. even in the wild animals wean their young as soon as they're able to eat solid food...
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And your understanding of the behavior of wild animals is pretty limited. I know of some domesticated animals that allow the young to nurse from time to time for quite a while after they can eat solid food. I agree, it's a non-issue.
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It is? Do tell how you can make that assumption. I try not to limit my knowledge. Yes, I've seen domesticated animals who let their young, sometimes not even their own young, nurse for longer. I wasn't talking about domesticated animals. I said wild animals. You say I have a limited knowledge of wild animals and then you say you know of domesticated animals who have let their young nurse longer.
That was a judgemental comment if I ever saw one. I wasn't judging anyone except the person that we were discussing that put herself on National TV. I brought up animals because animal behavior was brought up.
My whole point was I didn't understand how people who have been discussing this topic could make the jump from breastfeeding to same-sex relations in a public park. That's a hell of a jump.
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Your "whole point" has changed a bit from post to post, actually.
The "jump" is that they are both societal taboos, they both hurt no one, and they are both things people get their knickers in a bunch about without thinking about.
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In my original post I said: Ok, first of all, I am really baffled by how the breastfeeding of an 8-year old child has to do with "We must rid ourselves of the taboos that society has placed on us" attitude. I am just not seeing the connection.
So, no, my "whole point" hasn't changed from post to post. I've brought up other topics, yes, but the gist has remained the same.
The "jump" is that they are both societal taboos, they both hurt no one, and they are both things people get their knickers in a bunch about without thinking about.
And let's not forget that the child exploitation aspect is not victim-less. I'm perfectly willing to accept societal-sexual taboos that involve adults, not children.
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I'm done. It's starting to feel to me like you're just being disagreeable, and it's not fair for me to continue a conversation once I get that feeling.
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Well, I'm not done. I will however move my ramblings, commentary, and dissention to my own journal so as not to offend you since it's the polite thing to do, but before I do, you were the one that said they were both societal-taboos that hurt no one. That indicates the lack of a victim. Your words, not mine.
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